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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 73 post(s) |
Lord Vyper
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
2
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Posted - 2012.07.28 16:47:00 -
[1] - Quote
Inspiration wrote:Jett0 wrote:Inspiration wrote:Otherwise, as things stand, there hardly ever will be a sane reason to use a Hulk, given the advantages the Mackinaw has over the Hulk. The way a miner friend of mine put it, the Hulk becomes worse for solo mining but better for fleet mining. I wonder what makes him say this as the only thing improved on the Hulk is a bit of EHP. All other metrics have gone down, including yield, crystal storage and not at least the ore storage. It is even worse in signature size i think, so takes more damage from bigger rats...but I have to re-check this as I can't be sure form memory. To sum it up, it is worse off in every category but a bit of EHP and then not even a whole lot of EHP unless a Damage Control II is fitted.In which case, the extra mining output is clearly degraded to a point, the Mackinaw starts to make more sense with all its advantages, even the Skiff becomes e more sensible option then. I wonder where the delusion originated from that making a ship more vulnerable then it's alternatives, will make it an ideal fleet ship. Sure it mines 15% more then a like fitted Mackinaw, but in practice for micro management reasons this gap will be quite a bit smaller and the clear Advantages of the Mackinaw make more sense in fleet scenario's. No mining ship will work indefinably when solo in a hostile environment, not even combat ships do, which kind of makes the fleet angle irrelevant really. And logistics wise, all mining ships need logistical backing for serious mining, anywhere, which comes from a fleet. In my book, the new Hulk is actually the best no-backup, no fleet bonus, high sec solo mining ship. As only then does it's small ore hold and like crystal storage not matter much and will it have a clear sensible mining amount advantage over the Mackinaw. In all other situations it is the dumb choice.
15% multiplies out in a fleet quite well. And will give you considerably more output in a fleet than a group of mack's in equal number. For corps that want to get the most mining done in the fastest time such as probed sites or valuable pockets this is the best option. 3 mining lasers allows you to pull from 3 roids instead of 2 which can be very useful. In your book is an opinion and only that. Everyone has their own strategies on how to min/max. If you have secure space be it high, low or nullsec the hulk will still be your best option for eating roids. 10 hulks vs 10 mack's 150% output difference at a minimum. If your worried about being attacked the other options begin to have more appeal, but if not the hulk is still best option number wise. |
Lord Vyper
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 22:35:00 -
[2] - Quote
Inspiration wrote:Lord Vyper wrote:15% multiplies out in a fleet quite well. And will give you considerably more output in a fleet than a group of mack's in equal number. For corps that want to get the most mining done in the fastest time such as probed sites or valuable pockets this is the best option. 3 mining lasers allows you to pull from 3 roids instead of 2 which can be very useful. In your book is an opinion and only that. Everyone has their own strategies on how to min/max. If you have secure space be it high, low or nullsec the hulk will still be your best option for eating roids. 10 hulks vs 10 mack's 150% output difference at a minimum. If your worried about being attacked the other options begin to have more appeal, but if not the hulk is still best option number wise. The 15.5% more mining (theoretical number in a perfect world), you will never get, not even close to. And 10 Hulks vs 10 Mackinaws in this perfect numerical world is still just 15% more, not magically 150%! Explained I already did that the fleet factor is irrelevant (not to mention bogus), but when choosing the max yield per minute setups a fleet will hurt the hulk in a negative way as its small ore hold will block yield if not emptied rapidly and consistently. And be honest, when speaking of fleet mining we nearly always talk about some guy controlling 3 or more accounts, maybe with a buddy or two doing the same. Not at all, the one player per ship in a fleet of many, most people seem to fantasize about. Micromanagement will be a limiting factor here, especially in a fleet!
Math its your friend. 15% x 10 = 150%. Its a per ship difference meaning that every ship of that type that you add will increase the gap between the 2 fleets.This is a total yield calculation between 2 fleets. Even using your 6% number which is ridiculous number you pulled out of ur arse for the sake of trying to win an argument its still 60% more yield in a group of 10 vs 10. In smaller groups which is quite possible that gap is decreased significantly and does give more reasons to use a tankier ship with larger holds for the sake of convenience and laziness. I don't assume to know what CCP is thinking but the new redesigned hulk looks to reward the attentive human miner and punish the macro multiboxing AFKer. I am all for this. And as for fleet bonuses they are multiplicative not additive. So the gap does INCREASE as you gain more ships not decrease. You sir are a politician not a mathematician. I'm all for constructive discussion but the amount of arrogance you are displaying in your posts is unacceptable. Roleplaying kills people in Eve. |
Lord Vyper
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 22:57:00 -
[3] - Quote
El'essar Viocragh wrote:Lord Vyper wrote:Math its your friend. 15% x 10 = 150%. Its a per ship difference meaning that every ship of that type that you add will increase the gap between the 2 fleets. And yet, the percentual difference between the two fleets stays 15%. The 150% is the absolute amount of additional ore mined by the hulk fleet over the mackinaw fleet relative to a single mackinaw's yield (i.e. the 10 hulks get 1.5 mackinaws for free). PS: Math just unfriended you.
I was reffering to the amount of ore mined Thank you for proving my point. |
Lord Vyper
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.07.28 23:44:00 -
[4] - Quote
El'essar Viocragh wrote:Lord Vyper wrote:Math its your friend. 15% x 10 = 150%. Its a per ship difference meaning that every ship of that type that you add will increase the gap between the 2 fleets. And yet, the percentual difference between the two fleets stays 15%. The 150% is the absolute amount of additional ore mined by the hulk fleet over the mackinaw fleet relative to a single mackinaw's yield (i.e. the 10 hulks get 1.5 mackinaws for free). PS: Math just unfriended you. PPS: why are you talking about a 15% difference, when the Hulk has two 15% bonuses and the Mackinaw has one 1% bonus, making the difference 27.25% on sisi?
I was working off the numbers Inspiration was trying to use to justify him/her opinion that Hulks will be useless. The mack actually has another bonus on it plus 50% yield. You bring up a valid point I havent crunched out the raw bonuses for myself. I will do so now. |
Lord Vyper
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.07.29 00:10:00 -
[5] - Quote
Your right was using my finger instead of my abacus when I was writing this my apologies to math. I was thinking about total ore mined over extended periods of time and explaining it with percentages. Its 90 degrees here today I brain farted. I concede my failure to argue my point correctly. Anyways my point was that Hulks will still have a huge advantage assuming your using a decent fleet size and running bonuses like cycle time from the Orca. The only time you will be losing out is if you are multiboxing and not paying attention to your ore hold, but this is no different than things are now. So I can't comprehend how that can be used as an excuse to dislike a ships bonuses.
Anyone know what is the total bonus difference between the ships assuming you fit the Mack with 3 mining 2 upgrades and the Hulk with 2? How are stacking penalties assessed? |
Lord Vyper
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.07.29 01:12:00 -
[6] - Quote
Thanks for doing the math. |
Lord Vyper
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.07.29 01:59:00 -
[7] - Quote
Lair Osen wrote:Are there actually new mining rigs which people have mentioned a few times?
And what happened to that Mining Frigate??
BTW I like the new Uni Inv, it makes it a lot easier for me to move stuff around and sort through all the stuff i have lying around my hangars, though i admit it is a little bit more laggy.
Theres new rigs 12% cycle reduction to ice harvesters and a mercoxite one for 16% increase in mining amount. both listed on sisi under electronic rigs - medium. Both the blueprint and the module are seeded.
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Lord Vyper
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
9
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Posted - 2012.07.30 02:27:00 -
[8] - Quote
Inspiration wrote:
You are blaming me to pull numbers out of my arse and not being able to understand percentages, yet claim that you yourself are for a constructive argument. One word about you on all these issues:
Delusional!
1. To say that your a prick would be putting things lightly.
2. I openly admitted I was using percents incorrectly to explain my point. I was thinking about the actual amount of ore being mined (m3)
3. I have had more than one job using math and until this embarrassing moment I have never had an issue. Not that its any of your damned business but I Have completed Calculus 4 and completed the first year of Aerospace Engineering. 6 years as a US Navy Firecontrolman (Tomahawk Missile operator). So while you may question my skills they have been proven accurate under fire in real life.
4. You have to lighten the phaq up - your not the only person on this forum that has an opinion and the extreme close minded ignorance you display towards everyone else's view speaks highly of your character.
5. It is more than okay to give your input as to how you wish changes to this game to be implemented however don't forget you are talking to grown men and women who work very hard to bring you a product, so maintain a level of respect without stomping like a child about how if this doesnt get fixed you will quit eve (BYE!.
6. CCP has all end decisions on what direction they want to push this universe to generate their idea of fun and balance.
7. Don't post anymore crap that only has the purpose of 1 up-ing someone. That in no way has a positive outcome for any party. Its a discussion not a ROOSTER slapping contest. There is no reward for getting your epeen to level 100. except a single life with no girl surrounded by cats dressed like mechwarriors.
8. CARRY ON o7
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Lord Vyper
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
12
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Posted - 2012.07.30 06:32:00 -
[9] - Quote
rodyas wrote:
I need you to Tomahawk me into a life where I am a person surrouned by cats dressed like mechwarrios. And I can only talk to them with the voice of Vader.
p.s. did you roll caldari in EVE?
Main is Caldari. 2nd is Gallente and 3rd is Mini.
And whoever said Calc 5 is what you need to etc... you are correct which is why I left college to blow stuff up. |
Lord Vyper
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
14
|
Posted - 2012.07.31 02:18:00 -
[10] - Quote
Inspiration wrote: You can call me an aggressive debater that responds personal to personal attacks, but that is about it.
Your argument is invalid but I don't frequent the forums enough to carry on with you. +1 epeen points to you. Everyone else who has read your numerous posts will draw their conclusions. Don't ever presume you have a clue as to what enlisted military life is. You enlist live the life then you get the right to an opinion otherwise your answer should be "I don't know" and your lips close tightly. Many other things could be said but would only continue this endless cycle.
Anyway this convo is not the purpose of this thread so were done.
Hulk ore bay could be increased to hold at least 3 cycles of ICE (9000 m3) since this seems to be a very large concern from people. Also perhaps increasing the cargo hold to 500 m3 for crystal storage. my 2 cents.
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